LSU's Coach Cain on What Makes Players Successful | MLB Draft Podcast
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Episode Summary
We continue our MLB Draft Podcast with another installment of our College Coaching Series as we sit down with Louisiana State University Recruiting Coordinator Nolan Cain. In this episode, Coach Cain shares experiences and stories as both a player and coach at LSU and in professional baseball, as well as other advice gleaned from teammates and players that he has coached.
His journey from winning the College World Series as a player in 2009 to today as the Recruiting Coordinator at his alma mater gives him great insight into the realities of the day-to-day life and thought processes of individuals that have been successful both on and off the field. Coach Cain gives a fascinating look into several topics including the effects of Covid on their roster, why having a plan off the field frees you up as a player on the field, what a network is and why it matters, and how technology is constantly changing and shaping the game.
Having a cohesive plan that was formulated through education and preparation off the field has shown to be advantageous for players during both their college and professional careers. Coach Cain’s insider perspective continues to shed light on the importance of preparing yourself well in advance of the MLB Draft and surrounding yourself with the right people who can provide you the right information to make sure that you are making the best possible decision when it comes to choosing between attending college or pursuing professional baseball immediately out of college.
AWM Capital's Will McGuffey and Travis Chick interview Coach Seely and cover topics and questions like:
(1:00) Navigating how CoVid has impacted the MLB Draft and college roster construction.
(4:58) How to keep players focused on today and the pressures that players face.
(8:10) How to handle expectations and the perspective of players facing important decisions during their journey as a college player.
(12:10) Why having a plan and educating and preparing yourself off the field is important for players to be able to have success on the field.
(17:55) The negative impact of making an emotionally based business decision.
(20:00) How playing freely with little pressure can change your perspective and outcomes on and off the field.
(22:15) Market Value v. My Value…what is it?
(24:50) If you aren’t getting financial advice from someone in the sports world that understands your contracts and career, you aren’t getting the whole picture when making a life changing decision.
(26:28) Why is my network important and how does a college impact my network?
(30:15) Philosophies surrounding the MLB Draft and a different perspective on how to look at your career.
(33:30) Technology in baseball and how it has changed the way players are developed.
(40:20) The collaboration between MLB and NCAA Baseball, and how the two actually work together.
(45:00) Social media, perspective on who you are, and why every path is different.
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+ Read the Transcript
Travis Chick (00:49): Hey everybody. Welcome back to the MLB Draft Podcast. I'm your host, Travis Chick, and I'm joined today again by my partner, Will McGuffey. Will, welcome back to the show.
Will McGuffey (00:59): Appreciate it. Looking for round two today. Should be a lot of fun.
Travis Chick (01:00): You did so good in the first one, we just had to invite you back.
Will McGuffey (01:03): Appreciate it.
Travis Chick (01:04): I'm really excited about this episode. And today, we continue our college coaching series interviewing another powerhouse recruiting coordinator from the SEC. This is a program that since 2007 has produced 19 major league players and 85 draft picks and also multiple top five recruiting classes. Please welcome to the show, LSU Tiger assistant coach and recruiting coordinator, Nolan Cain. Coach Cain, welcome to the show.
Nolan Cain (01:31): Hey, thanks for having me on, guys.
Travis Chick (01:33): Thank you for joining us. We're excited here. One of the things I personally find so impressive about the LSU is just the consistency in which top talent is produced. I can remember back in my playing days constantly going against the LSU Tigers back in Pro Bowl. And so it's a consistency that I think you guys consistently put out. And so, what I'd like to focus our discussion today is on your experience keeping guys focused during the season.
Travis Chick (02:00): I think this year, especially during the draft, but this year is probably different than any season that you guys had in the past, because of the extra eligibility. So you probably have more draft eligible players than you've ever had on a team. So what are you guys going to do to navigate that? And what have you done in the past to help successfully navigate players to keep them focused on winning a national championship for LSU, rather than just thinking about the draft?
Nolan Cain (02:29): The roster management this ... It's always difficult. We're always running up against the draft. We have obviously seniors that are moving on. You've got juniors that are draft eligible. Here at LSU, we've had a lot of guys decide to come back, as Will knows, the Cole Freemans and the Kramer Robertsons. And we've had draft eligible sophomores like Greg Deichmann that have come back for their junior year. And then you've got your incoming class.
Nolan Cain (02:57): And this year was just very difficult, five-round draft, and then you had the free agent stuff. We ended up having two guys drafted, one of Will's former guys and Cole Henry, Daniel Cabrera. And then we had two juniors that could have came back for another year. They signed free agent, because now you're trying to give them advice and their advisors and agents are giving them advice. And these guys were going to be 23 years old at draft. What does that look like? They need to get their pro career started.
Travis Chick (03:31): For sure.
Nolan Cain (03:33): And they eventually made the decision to move on and start their pro careers, which we fully support. But all this stuff didn't happen until early August. At that point, there's not a lot of players that are available out there that can play at this level. But it was a crazy wild year all the way starting back. I remember when our administrator, Dan Gaston, called me, I was driving to Pensacola, Florida to see a JUCO game. And he's like, "Hey, you got to get back. It's over. The pandemic's hitting. COVID is getting bad. They're shutting everything down. We're not going to Ole Miss to play."
Nolan Cain (04:14): And so they pulled me right off the road. So I drove seven hours that day and didn't see a game.
Travis Chick (04:18): Perfect.
Nolan Cain (04:20): It was a lot of fun, but even going back to ... Our end of the year team meeting was done on a conference call. Nobody even really knew what Zoom was at that point. So it was crazy and-
Travis Chick (04:31): Now we all do.
Nolan Cain (04:33): Yeah, now we all do. The life is on Zoom. So the balance of everything, the weirdness of everything, and then moving forward with this year, you made a comment, we probably have more draft eligible players. And it's really on our pitching side. So now we're in this really weird back and forth teetering phase where we're losing probably 10 of our best pitchers this year. And all of our position players are young. We have two draft eligible guys that will probably get drafted this year. They're going to be starters for us that could return for their senior year.
Nolan Cain (05:11): And now next year, all of our arms are going to be sophomores or freshmen. So now we're in this teetering back and forth phase and trying to find a way to balance it out is what we're currently trying to do. But a lot of it is out of our hands with this early recruiting. A lot of your recruiting classes are done by the time these kids are going into their junior years now. And now you're just waiting to be able to sign them. You're waiting for the major league baseball draft, like I just talked about a few minutes ago.
Nolan Cain (05:40): So there's a real balance to this and it's made it even more difficult with guys getting years of eligibility back.
Travis Chick (05:48): Yeah, for sure.
Will McGuffey (05:48): How have you seen on the mental side of this? How has that affected guys? I know we talk to obviously our clients and a lot of coaches out there, and it seems like the program, it's a little bit different. But how have you kept you guys focused? How has this affected guys mentally in regards to thinking about college baseball, is this season going to happen or not? And then those guys that did have the opportunity last year, I had my opportunity taken away, so to speak, in regards to the draft, but I do have a year of eligibility back.
Will McGuffey (06:17): What's the thought process? What are you seeing from those guys? How do you keep them focused on what they're doing today?
Nolan Cain (06:23): Well, mentally with our current players, it feels back to normal. The expectations at LSU are so high and so big. We've led the nation in attendance for 25 straight years. It's going to be a little different this year with 25% capacity. So it won't be the crowds that our guys are used to or whatever, but the social media pressure that's on these guys ... After every game, we have 10, 11, 12 beat writers that are talking to coach Mainieri after a game, a win, a loss.
Nolan Cain (06:54): You went 4 for 4, you threw a no-hitter, you got crushed, you went 0 for 4 with two errors. The expectations of LSU baseball are so high that our guys are attacking everything head on. Our guys, they work so hard, because all of them had the talent and the ability. And we always say it around here that, that carrot that's dangling out there of pro baseball, that's what drives these guys to work so hard in the weight room during practice, getting ... It's been a little easier with COVID, because we haven't been able to let these guys come and go as much as they normally do.
Nolan Cain (07:33): But we have certain times where the field is just open or the cages are just open, hour-segments where, "Hey, if you want to get extra work, this is your time to do it." And it's always filled up. I probably could count on one hand the times that guys have had that made available to them where they're not down there. But I think the toughest thing has been academically. LSU has a great support system here academically. Have the Cox Communications Academic Center where in a traditional year, they're running 1,400 hours a week of tutoring sessions, face to face.
Travis Chick (08:08): Wow.
Nolan Cain (08:08): Whether it's one-on-one group sessions. And now they're doing a lot of that via Zoom. And I think that the guys are ... Especially the freshmen, it's always a big adjustment to LSU. LSU is a big place, the expectations that I just talked about. But it's been a big adjustment for these guys academically, because they haven't had that face to face time with their teachers. They haven't had that face to face time with their academic advisor, their strategy tutor or whatever it is. So it's been a different year, but our guys are handling it very well. We're handling it well as a staff.
Nolan Cain (08:41): And I guess what I'm trying to say to wrap this up is, the expectations of LSU going to Omaha and competing for national championships is that glue that really holds these guys together, because know, at the end of the day, once the season starts, it's all about them and what they do and how they perform.
Will McGuffey (09:02): [crosstalk 00:09:02].
Travis Chick (09:02): Yeah, no. I'm glad you speak a lot about the expectations. I can certainly relate to the maturity that the LSU guys had, coming out of the drafting plan against them straight into Pro Bowl. It's pretty obvious that you guys are out there to win national championship every year. And so, one of the things that you talked about earlier was the beat reporters in the clubhouse. And it reminded me that scouts are probably the same way. They're sitting on the sidelines, watching these guys, trying to figure out who's the best.
Travis Chick (09:32): And we're all human. We all want everybody to be impressed by what we do. So for the guys that are really in that top round discussion, the first, second rounders, the ones that are going to have real financial decisions to make, it's hard to not think about, "Hey, I'm about to make millions of dollars." So what have you guys done or maybe provided information for or whatever? How have you helped those guys set aside the fact that, "Hey, I've got millions of dollars in front of me," but still go out there and tune out the noise of, "Hey, there's scouts watching me here, or agents beating down my door, financial teams beating down my door?" How do you keep them locked into that national championship focus?
Nolan Cain (10:18): Well, I think the easiest part is that a lot of these decisions from these kids have been made on the front end. The vast majority of our guys have advisors have financial guys coming out of high school, going into the draft at 18 years old. They have their team put together they lean on us a lot. I can remember Greg Deichmann, who I mentioned earlier, he was a draft eligible sophomore. And in about three quarters of the way through sophomore year, he went and talked to coach Mainieri and he was like, "Hey, what do you think?"
Nolan Cain (10:56): And coach was like, "I can't answer that question for you. You've got to answer that question for yourself." And they had a really good conversation. And then Greg was like, "Coach, I really want your opinion." And Paul was like, "Listen, I think if you come back next year, you were heard as a freshman. You're finally playing. You're finally starting. You had a great summer. You had a great fall. You had a great spring scrimmage session. Now you're having a great season. I think that you're just scratching the surface of what your value is going to be a year from now."
Nolan Cain (11:28): And sure enough, a year later, he goes supplemental first round. And I saw the other day that he might be projected to be the Oakland A's starting right fielder. So it's all working out for that kid. And there are certain times where we have to push kids out the door and say, "Hey man, it's time to go. You can't come back. Your stock's at an all time high." And LSU is a tough place to leave, just because our guys are famous. Our guys are rock stars in this town. These guys can't go straight across the street to walk-ons without people coming up and "Hey, will you take a picture?"
Nolan Cain (12:03): It's pretty good life, but those teams and those things that are put together are done on the front end, coming out of high school. And very rarely does somebody switch agents or advisors while they're here. They pretty much stick to the people that they're with. But from us, we're just there to guide these kids, and that's why we got into this. We all got into coaching, we want to win. Listen, I want to go to Omaha and win national championships. And I want to have a great coaching career. But we did this to be around these guys all the time.
Nolan Cain (12:39): And our life experiences, even though I'm 35, these guys think I have all the wisdom in the world. And sometimes just being there to listen and open your ears and understand what they're going through and what they want, and then be able to give them advice from the experiences that you've had, it helps them mold and make their decisions on their own.
Travis Chick (13:02): Now, I'm going to park on that real quick, because one of the things that you really hit on there, it seems like, and we stress this over and over and over and over again with the players that we ultimately end up representing is being prepared. You talked about some of the players that are coming out of high school already having their advisors in place and their agents in place. And maybe those are the same thing. Maybe they're not. We'll figure that out one of these days.
Travis Chick (13:26): But it seems, the earlier these guys are prepared to be able to remove the emotion from the decision, not only do we see that benefit them on the financial side, but it sounds like even on the college side, it helps eliminate a lot of those distractions too. And so I guess if you could give any advice to maybe future LSU Tigers, and I know we're not going to get down that road too far, and then obviously current LSU Tigers that are going in the draft. How much would you stress being prepared off the field helps you guys be prepared on the field?
Nolan Cain (14:07): I think the guys that I've seen go through this process the best, whether they've come to school or they signed pro out of high school, they all had a really good plan. They almost had pros and cons lists. They maybe had a number or "Hey, if I get X I'm going. This is what it's going to take for me to miss that experience of college baseball and college athletics and being a student athlete." And I think that when everybody's on the same page, when it's the player, the mom, the dad, the advisor, the other team that's around them, I think when everybody's on the same page and that is a defined area, it takes the emotion out of it.
Nolan Cain (14:52): Because the biggest thing that happens is you see the kids that aren't prepared for this. And I don't have a better word for this, but it's the ego, it's the emotion piece of this and going, "Well, I played against that guy and he just went in the second round," and all of a sudden, "I do have an opportunity," so on the fourth round, I'm going to show ..." "Well, hey dude, listen, if all those other shortstop sign before you and you go to college, and now you're one of the top three college shortstops three years from now with the way that major league baseball values the college numbers and the college players, now you're going to be that first rounder."
Will McGuffey (15:32): Go be the first rounder and go prove yourself in the SEC. Go have a career at a university where you're going to have a legacy afterwards.
Travis Chick (15:40): I can promise you, it's more fun to ... I don't know this personally, but I can bet it's a lot more fun to play at LSU when you're 18, 19 and 20 than in places like Jamestown, New York.
Will McGuffey (15:50): Yeah.
Nolan Cain (15:51): Yeah. And I think that when you have that plan, when you have a solidified plan, it takes the emotion out of it.
Will McGuffey (16:02): How do you all-
Nolan Cain (16:02): And that's where kids make bad ... Not bad decisions. I think that's when kids waiver from what they really want. They go back and forth, "Okay. I had a great game today. I'm going to be a first rounder. I'm signing." And then you have a bad game or you have a bad week and, "Oh, I'm going to college now." A lot of these kids, they're in such a win-win ... They're either going to be a millionaire or they're going to be playing at their dream school-
Travis Chick (16:26): Or they're maybe going to be treated like a millionaire. I don't know.
Will McGuffey (16:30): It's funny you say that that emotion waivers back and forth. And without naming names or players, but I have literally been at a game where I had a recruit that ... This is back when I was an advisor. I was watching a college baseball game, and there was a recruit there that I was working with. Wasn't sitting anywhere near the individual, and in the middle of the game, they texted me and they were like, "Man, I'm not ready to go in the major league draft." And I think part of it was they were sitting in the emotion.
Will McGuffey (16:59): It was an unbelievable game, two top 15 teams. Friday night, going in front of 8,000 people. And it was a stark contrast to the conversation that was had a week earlier. So that emotional swing, when you're talking about these 18 year old kids, goes back and forth. And I've seen it happen in real time, sitting in an SEC stadium before. It's hard to really, I guess, understand that emotion that that individual individual's going through. And as much as we deal with it, as much as we sit there and walk through families in this scenario every single year for the past 15 years, it's still really hard to be in those shoes and understand what that person is actually feeling during that time.
Will McGuffey (17:40): As far as that goes, Nolan, what do you all, I guess, on the financial ... Everybody knows about the advisor piece and how that's a lot earlier than it used to be. And it comes into play way before we do. Our thought process is always, we want to prepare and educate on the financial side and on the wealth management side as much as possible in advance as well, because it gives you leverage and it gives you the ability to have no emotion and have your plan in place. Is there anything that you all do LSU, that you all can give or you all can assist players with on the wealth management side?
Will McGuffey (18:14): On the, "Hey, this is a financial breakdown," or, "Hey, this is the career path that you're looking at versus coming to LSU?" What type of resources are you all able to give and can you all give to potential recruits? And then also on the backside, when you're talking about guys, like the Deichmann came in and sat down, what other types of advice and tools can you all give to those players that are in your program currently?
Nolan Cain (18:37): I just want to go back real quick, and then we'll talk about the education and the financial piece that we do. But back to the emotion and having a plan is, you don't make emotion-based decisions in a business. And when you're going into professional baseball, you are going into 1000% a business. So that's when you have ... That's why we try to help these kids take the emotion out of it and make it be a, "Hey, this is a cut and dry thing. You don't have to tell me your number. I don't want to know your number. Okay? But whatever that is, stick to it. Stick to your plan and have a plan and roll forward."
Nolan Cain (19:19): But as far as the financial stuff, listen, you usually have a relationship with the advisors. Maybe not so much the financial people with these kids out of high school, just because for me, I'm trying to gather information. So I have relationships with the advisors and see what they're thinking. It helps me protect my program. I told Will this a thousand times, and Will was great at, and that's why we had a great relationship, but I would say, "Will, listen, if he's going to sign, just let me know."
Nolan Cain (19:51): Because that helps me protect my program. It helps me maybe go get that junior college player, or maybe that late pop-up developer that's a senior in high school that we've been building a relationship with and it's down to us and three or four other schools. And I think for us, that's where the relationship is so important with those people. But from a financial standpoint, I have a very stock breakdown of what a million, what a million and a half, what a 2 million looks like after taxes, after your pay your advisor, after you buy a car, after you buy a house, these things that ...
Nolan Cain (20:30): And then what that looks like six, seven years in minor league baseball if you don't make it to the big leagues. And what are you holding in your bank account after you just live a normal lifestyle? And then what I try to do is also compare that to going through the college experience, graduating, having your college degree, what you would make out of college and where you would be at that same point in your life if you had a college degree. And take me, for instance, I've played at LSU, won a national championship, didn't get drafted, signed free agent, went and played for a year and a half.
Nolan Cain (21:09): But I played pretty freely, because I had a college degree. So I knew as a free agent, they could walk in at any point and be like, "Hey, Nolan, pack your bags. Get out of here," even if I had a 2 ERA. It wasn't going to matter, because it's about those younger players that are coming up through the organization. And back to what I said a few minutes ago, it is a business. So I've played with very little pressure and had a good pro career and eventually had to hang it up. But right away, went into a job at Marucci Sports.
Nolan Cain (21:41): I always wanted to go into coaching. Those opportunities weren't there at that point. My wife was coaching LSU softball. I worked at Marucci, and then a spot came available on LSU baseball staff, and coach Mainieri hires me. And now I'm the director of baseball operations. And now I'm the volunteer assistant. And then our recruiting coordinator takes a head coaching job in the SEC. And then I move up to that. Now I've been doing this for six years, and then hopefully I'll be a head coach in the next three or four years.
Nolan Cain (22:10): And now I'm 35. It's amazing. I've seen these guys at LSU that are getting ready for spring training and stuff. They're my age, and they're still playing. I'm like, "Dude, you're still playing baseball? And my body feels so bad. I don't even know how you're still playing baseball." But that's-
Will McGuffey (22:28): You're preaching to the choir right now.
Nolan Cain (22:31): ... two different courses of life. And I think that when you have that college degree, when you have that college experience or being so close, if you're a junior and the way that coach Mainieri runs this program, you're not taking basket weaving. You are taking classes that go towards a degree. And we're so proud of all these guys that made the major leagues, but we've had 20 guys that have gone into Pro Bowl without their degrees that have come back and gotten it while they were still playing, because they were so close to getting it. And that's what it's all about for us.
Travis Chick (23:03): That's awesome. That's great. One of the things that you hit on there that really resonates with me is it ties back into, what is my number? And we all know that in baseball, because it is a business, every player out there actually has a market value. But that's going to be dictated by what the scouts and your ability on the field has. But we also know that ... And you guys just proved that with the point that all these guys are coming back and going to school, everybody has a value, a human capital number that they're able to go out and achieve on their own without baseball.
Travis Chick (23:39): And so one of the things that we always try to do is take what the value of an LSU is, what the value of that degree is, what the value of the network that you've created there, what the value of your future job would be. And what we can do is take some financial analysis and bring that back into a present value that says, "Hey, the value of me going to an LSU or Texas A&M or a Vanderbilt," pick a school, "there's some value to that." And it just really helps bring these guys into what their numbers should be.
Travis Chick (24:13): And I think there's a disconnect from what we see in where agents and guys on our side have conflicting ideas is an agent's going to go out and say, "Hey he throws a hundred miles an hour. His market value is $6 million," but they discount the fact that, "Hey, this guy's number one in his class. And he's got a full scholarship to LSU. He wants to be an attorney. His intrinsic value, his human capital number might be seven, eight, $10 million." We can't find that out until we actually do the math on that.
Travis Chick (24:46): But where I'm going with this is so often we hear there's several agencies out there that say, "Hey you don't need a financial advisor before the draft. Wait until after the draft. You don't have any money." And especially now with the breakdown of how the draft is. They're getting a hundred thousand dollars this year, and then the rest of it's paid out over the next couple of years. I think it's really putting them into this disconnect of taking financial advice from people that aren't actually qualified to give financial advice.
Travis Chick (25:17): And so if you could land any current players, future players, any advice on that ... And it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, just being prepared. But I guess where I'm going is, do you see that as a legitimate thing? Like, "Hey, you don't need a financial team before the draft. You don't need financial advice before the draft." It seems so weird that you're getting a business decision, but you're not taking financial advice from that.
Nolan Cain (25:41): I think if you're that caliber of player and you're not getting financial advice from somebody that, not just as a financial advisor, but is working in the sports world and sees the contracts and sees all of those things, I think you're only getting 90% of the picture. And if you're making a life changing decision, I think you need to have all your bases covered. And I think you need to 100% know the ins and outs of what you're getting into. And listen, at 18 years old, they were doing ... We were all 18-
Travis Chick (26:17): Could barely tie our shoes.
Nolan Cain (26:18): You think you know. You don't know. You don't know. You don't know. And you try to lean on your mom and your dad, but ... I didn't think my dad knew anything either, just like you guys probably did.
Travis Chick (26:27): Yeah, same way.
Will McGuffey (26:28): About age 30, I started to realize they knew a whole lot more than what I thought they did.
Nolan Cain (26:33): So when you have that team in place, when you have a full team in place, I think that that's just giving you the full spectrum of everything you're looking from, from A to Z. If you don't, then you're going from A to T [crosstalk 00:26:50] to do it all.
Will McGuffey (26:49): You just have more ammunition to make that decision, which we all alluded to is life-changing. So the more information you have to make the decision, the better off you are and the better off you're going to be able to stick to that plan and take emotion out of it and say, "Hey, look, this is why I made this decision. This is why I picked this number. And those are the reasons that I'm going to stick to it." If there's any holes in that, then there's a chance that you're going to flip at the last minute and make a decision that might impact your life negatively.
Nolan Cain (27:17): Yeah. And you said something earlier that people don't think about, but networks, Travis, because you don't know what a network is when you're 18, but-
Travis Chick (27:26): Well, you know what a social network is. There's not a lot of financial ... Well, maybe there is now. The world is changing, but ...
Nolan Cain (27:36): Yeah. Well, Will knows from being around our programs sometimes that ... Dude, I've got guys that I played with at LSU that were good players, not starting players, but fully took advantage of the platform of LSU. And-
Travis Chick (27:53): No doubt.
Nolan Cain (27:53): ... they were huge out in the community and did a lot of community service and did a lot of things for kids and go into elementary schools and reading to them. And you build this network, and you get a little publicity forwardness. I have buddies that are making 400 grand. They didn't even get drafted. They had nothing to do with baseball, except for, they took advantage of the network that was in place for them.
Travis Chick (28:16): Absolutely.
Nolan Cain (28:17): And they took that to an extreme and took it to the fullest factor. And they are successful as Anthony Ranaudo who signed for two and a half million and played in the big leagues for four or five years. And now they're teaming up and doing business ventures together. That's the network that those guys that you ... Not just that you play with, not just the name that you build in Louisiana and Baton Rouge and being an LSU Tiger, but within that locker room. And those guys are going to go on to do other things. And I think that that's something that gets overlooked.
Nolan Cain (28:57): And when you go into a program, "Pick one in the SEC, pick them in the ACC, pick one in the Big 12." Those programs have bet you their networks are phenomenal and off the charts. And I think that those are the things that you don't think of when you're 18 years old.
Will McGuffey (29:17): And I was thinking about this, leading into today. It was probably five or six years ago. There was a player, he was a role player. Started a little bit here and there, some injuries, local kid. And I think it was a super regional, hits a walk-off home run to win the game. And he hit that walk-off home run. And it was a big moment. Everybody knew about it. Everybody talked about it. And I just turned to my wife and I go, "That guy just made millions of dollars and is set for life now." And she goes, "What are you talking about?"
Will McGuffey (29:43): And I said, "People are going to remember him for the rest of their lives from that single home run." And he had played less and less as the season had gone on. And I said, "He's employable for the rest of his life. He's going to get great jobs as long as he ... Just from that one moment." And it's true, it really is. And you alluded to it. You see guys around town all the time. I'm not from here, but I've lived here now since 2008. And you run into people all the time in business. And whether they're sales or they're doctors or dentist or attorneys or whatever it might be.
Will McGuffey (30:12): And none of them made it in the big leagues. Some of them did make it to big leagues for a brief amount of time, but they're all successful after the fact. And a lot of that is too, like you said, the network and being involved and having that name and association with the program that takes you a lot further. Then once you're on field, talent stake you.
Travis Chick (30:30): It's funny, you always hear the term, "It's who you know, but it's also who knows you," and so-
Will McGuffey (30:34): And you get that access. That's the crazy thing that people don't understand is when you're at one of these programs, people want to meet you. And you get those opportunities to shake hands and talk to people and introduce yourself and make an impression on people that you normally wouldn't get the opportunity to do.
Nolan Cain (30:55): I might be getting a little bit off topic here, Travis, but you said something earlier about controlling the controllables. And I think a lot of these kids don't understand just the way that the draft works. There are 30 major league teams, and some of them are analytical. Some are pro high school. Some are more pro college player. They all had their own philosophies. It doesn't mean they're right. That doesn't mean they're wrong. It doesn't mean that we're right. It doesn't mean that our process is better. It doesn't mean ... It's person to person and feel to feel.
Nolan Cain (31:31): But we have a player that's on our campus now that he got a chance to be one of the best players to ever come through LSU. And the thing that sticks out to me about his process was just, he always wanted to play the LSU, number one, but he valued that so much. And you're watching this kid go through his senior year, starting in Jupiter, and all of a sudden, you're watching him play ... And Will's been through this before, you get this prospect breakdown period where it's like, "What can this guy not do?"
Nolan Cain (32:03): And then you have the profiles of the draft, first base out of high school isn't a great profile. Right outfielders out of high school isn't a great profile. This kid, still a top 10 player in his class, but because the way that the draft works out and pro college teams, major league teams, some are looking for high-end arms. Some are now looking for that corner, third base power bat profile. And he just didn't meet the profile of what they're looking for out of high school. But now he comes here and takes care of business and does the things that we've seen him do so far.
Nolan Cain (32:44): This guy's going to be a top 10 pick. And instead of contemplating a million and a half or $2 million at a high school, this guy's going to get six, seven, eight million. And then going to jump straight-
Travis Chick (32:57): Life-changing money.
Nolan Cain (32:57): Yeah, he's going to get jumped straight to High-A, straight to Double-A. And I'm not talking about the decision he made. I'm talking about people don't understand the draft. They don't understand the way that it really works. And major league baseball, the individual teams, they have their own process. They have their own algorithms now. They have a model of things ... So just because you don't go in the top 60 picks like you thought you were doesn't mean that you're not still a good player and doesn't mean that you should panic and just sign.
Nolan Cain (33:33): It just means that you're not meeting what those profiles are for those high-end draft picks. Some teams are going to take their chance on that guy that throws a hundred with a power slider. Maybe he doesn't really have command yet, but we get him in our organization. We send him to rookie ball and then we send him the Low-A and we put him on the path. And then five years from now, he's a big leaguer and he's a number one starter. And those things happen all the time.
Travis Chick (33:57): All the time.
Nolan Cain (33:57): But it doesn't mean that you're not a good player if it doesn't happen for you at 18 years old. There's millions of kids playing baseball and major league baseball of 1,500 picks every year in a normal draft.
Travis Chick (34:09): Yeah. I'd love to expand on that actually, shift gears to talk baseball a minute, because we've all seen the technology shift in the game. It's spin rate this, spin efficiency here, launch angle that and all that stuff. And so talking about the different profiles and the different needs of all the college teams, I guess, do you guys have profiles for different teams? So you know what they're looking for. Not that that matters in how you coach the team. But I feel like so many colleges, and going through your program, the Aaron Nola Pitching center, the investment in you guys to be able to develop talent is pretty unbelievable.
Travis Chick (34:54): So how do you guys match being able to advance your players, but also being able to disseminate the right information to these players and say, "Hey here's my draft book?" For example, "Here's my measureables." How can you match what these players are looking for to develop themselves, but also be able to match what these MLB organizations are looking for?
Nolan Cain (35:21): Well, I think the college and major league baseball technology, I think we've worked pretty good together. LSU, we were the first program to have TrackMan. We were part of their pilot program back in 2012, and we didn't even know what were looking for. You can start looking and speed waves and-
Travis Chick (35:43): These numbers are cool.
Nolan Cain (35:44): Yeah. You started looking at exit speeds and this stuff. And then now we're looking at PFX Z and PFX X and induced vertical break and vertical approach angle. And I think the technology really tells a story of why a guy is good. And Will's seen it. And I'm sure you [crosstalk 00:36:07].
Travis Chick (36:09): [crosstalk 00:36:09] on that.
Nolan Cain (36:10): Why do you show up, and some guy's throwing 92 right down the middle of the play and is getting-
Travis Chick (36:16): [crosstalk 00:36:16] measurable.
Nolan Cain (36:16): ... 35% million miss and he's getting popups to center field, and then you got this guy that's throwing 97 that's just getting barreled all over the place? And you start looking at it and you got the release heights and the extensions and the horizontal and vertical movements. And what I've learned is it all goes back to what you see with your eyes. It tells you, "Okay. We've always known that that ball really ..." The old term of, "Man, that ball really carries or rides through the zone."
Travis Chick (36:49): Heavy, yeah.
Nolan Cain (36:50): And now we say, "He's got 18 inches of induced vertical break." Travis Chick (36:53): It used to be a bowling ball, right? They called it a bowling ball back in the day.
Will McGuffey (36:58): I still call it a bowling ball.
Nolan Cain (37:02): And listen, I think that the Rapsodo and the TrackMan, it allows you to go, "Hey dude, listen, this is what makes you really good. When you do X and this happens, dude, you're really successful. Now, when you get outside of this, your hand gets on the side of the ball, and now it's just flattened streak. With your release on an extension, you're going to get pounded. And I think when you flip those things on during a bullpen, and they can feel when that ball's at 12, 15 out their hand, as opposed to 130 on the spin rates and the tilts and stuff. I think that when a guy can feel that and they can see it and go, "Ah, there we go."
Will McGuffey (37:45): Know where it is.
Nolan Cain (37:46): But there's been plenty of times you bring a guy in, and you're like, "Hey dude, listen, just throw the fastball right at the catcher's face mask. Just throw it at his face mask. Okay? You're going to have ..." And they do it, and they're like ... Now this confidence grows, because now they're having some success and they know why they're having success. I remember when I was a pitcher, 0509, we didn't have anything. And man, I'm throwing good, boom. I keep doing what I'm doing. Get pounded one time. Oh, back to the drawing board. Okay. Go three quarters now.
Nolan Cain (38:14): And it's like, "Dude, what were you doing back then?" And I think that was maybe a little bit of a lack of a confidence feel or a lack of understanding. But now it's easier to get these guys back on track. And we have Synergy and Sydex BATS, and we have Rapsodo. And there is no secret it. Offensively, guys that hit the ball hard consistently, they get a lot of hits. It's really cool. They throw out the LSU baseball data graphic to it to get a ball 111. Hit the ball hard consistently, you're going to get hit.
Nolan Cain (38:50): And you hit the ball from 10 to 25 degree launch angles, you're going to get a lot of hits, and I think maybe if you're training those things. But we don't necessarily do that as in, take a swing and look, "Okay. That was 11 degrees." It's more for us in our cages, we have a yellow line. And when we're hitting in the cages, we're trying to stay on that yellow line. How many times can we repeat that swing, repeat? Because you get everything of feel versus real.
Nolan Cain (39:18): We've all seen the video of Albert Pujols talking about, "Man, I'd take that knob right down to the baseball." And you see the swing of the game. he's not even relatively coming close to doing that. But that's what he feels he's doing. So what's feel versus real? And how do you coach all these guys? And we've even started doing this S2 Cognition test and testing our players' mental capabilities and how they learn and what they're good at and what they're not good at. And then it gives you a regimen of, "Hey, this guy is really good at X, Y, Z. He's not good at this. Here are the things that ..."
Nolan Cain (39:54): Maybe his depth perception is not good. "These are the ways that he can work." Maybe his timing's not good, "These are the ways that we can work and try to turn those deficiencies into positives." And maybe that makes them a completely different player. But there's so much stuff out there. And we talk about all the time, what are we going to spend our 20 hours a week on? We got to take ground balls, and we've got to play catch, and we've got to scrimmage and you've got to lift and condition.
Nolan Cain (40:26): And how much of this stuff are we going to dedicate ourselves to? How much of this stuff are we going to make available to these kids? And I think we put them on what we feel is a really good plan and regiment. And we use a lot of this stuff and we talk a lot about this stuff, but I think when data and TrackMan and Rapsodo and this stuff, I think when these things, video, when these things become a crutch of you have a bad day, and the first thing you see a guy in the video room, dude, you've still got to go out there and compete, man.
Nolan Cain (41:03): And I think we have a good blend of all of those things. And back to what I said earlier, I've learned so much from major league teams that we have relationships with where their analytical people spend time with me on the phone and said," Hey, I'm not going to give you the answers to the test, but go look at this."
Will McGuffey (41:24): That's great.
Nolan Cain (41:24): And we have enough data and you can filter it and you do this or ... And they've called me and said, "what do you have with this? And "What do you look for?" And "Have you seen anything new recently?" And to be able to go back and forth. And I think people think that major league baseball and college baseball don't have a relationship. Some of the best friends in those game are our scouts and we have a better relationship than people think.
Will McGuffey (41:50): I used to have to call Nolan and ask him for the answer to the test. I'd just be like, "Hey, dude, let's just skip the lesson. Let's just go straight to the answer portion." And we learned a lot, because Nolan's been on the forefront cutting edge of trying to understand this. He's been doing this for years. And it was always, when I would get a chance to go sit down and just talk shop and what's what's coming down the pipeline. It was amazing to hear it. And the things he was talking about years ago are now taking hold and are becoming more mainstream, but it's information he was parsing through.
Will McGuffey (42:20): And I think what you just said, I think a couple of things. One, colleges, it seems like with the technology, you all been able to bridge the gap a little bit. Because I know a lot of people say, "Hey, there's a development gap that colleges don't do that professional baseball enhances. I think with the technology and being able to look and be on the same page with major league organizations and say, "Hey, this is what those teams are looking for. and this is what you need to do, and here's how we're going to do it."
Will McGuffey (42:45): And then having that relationship where you and the teams are openly talking about the technology and the data, because I think at the end of the day, everybody wants the same thing. If you're going to be a successful college program, you're going to have successful college baseball players. Those successful college baseball players want to be major league baseball players. They're going to go up there. And the things that you're going to continue on and learn to win a world series at the big league level are the same things that you can learn in college and start working on and start having some of those same philosophies.
Will McGuffey (43:14): And while everybody's different, you still start learning some of those lessons and implementing them at a younger age. And I think it's great that there is that collaborative relationship between baseball and clubs you.
Nolan Cain (43:24): I think you've seen more crossover back, both sides. You see so many guys getting hired from college, professional baseball. I've had opportunities to interview for jobs in professional baseball. And you see a lot of pro guys. Our pitching coach, Alan Dunn, spent three years in the big leagues as an assistant pitching coach and spent 15 years as a minor league coordinator. And just got tired of that life of the travel and this stuff. And he loves to coach his pitchers.
Nolan Cain (43:55): He wants his 15 to 18 pitchers, "Give me these guys." And he's in the fight with them every single day. And that's what he wants to do. He didn't want to be the rover, if you will, of, "Hey, I'm seven days in Triple-A, I'm seven days in Double-A, I'm seven days in High-A. And he just felt like he wasn't having that direct impact. He was helping and teaching, but it was really the decision maker. When a guy went down in the big leagues, they, "Hey, who should we bring up?" "Okay. We brought this guy up. Who needs to go to Triple-A? Who needs to go to Double-A?"
Nolan Cain (44:29): So he was losing that passion of being there in the bullpen. Shoot, when he first got here, he used to throw the gear on and catch the bullpen until his knees went bad. This guy [crosstalk 00:44:39].
Will McGuffey (44:38): I've witnessed that before.
Nolan Cain (44:42): It's amazing, but ... And I think that, that crossover is great. Baseball, as we all know, listen, we all know each other.
Travis Chick (44:51): Sure.
Nolan Cain (44:53): Everybody knows that-
Travis Chick (44:54): It's a time network.
Nolan Cain (44:55): Everybody's one person away from knowing this guy, and as a player, you never know who I know that's going to get in touch with me about you positively or negatively. You never know that reach of the baseball network.
Travis Chick (45:11): Yeah, no. I think that's really important advice for anybody, the draft picks especially, to understand, "Hey, if you're a really a bad dude internally, but you're a good player, it's not going to be hard to figure out who that bad dude actually is." Because this network, I can pick up the phone and call any scout or get in touch with any scout. You can obviously do the same. We can get in touch with college coaches. It's all about information flow and it goes back to who knows you. But obviously coach, I want to be super sensitive of your time.
Travis Chick (45:44): I know you're out there trying to win a national championship. So if there's any parting words you might have for some of these guys or anything else you want to hit on briefly, we'd love to hear it. But obviously, like I said, I want to be sensitive to your time.
Nolan Cain (46:00): I think these days, these kids are growing up with stuff that we don't necessarily fully even understand, because we didn't grow up with it, but the social media and those type of platforms, just be very careful about those. Be careful about the platform, social media rankings, worrying about all this stuff. There's a lot of kids that want to play at LSU. There's a lot of kids that want to play in the SEC. We can only take so many guys a year. In a traditional year, we have a 35-man roster. How many kids do you think were able ... Just because you're not getting those opportunities doesn't mean that you're not a good player.
Nolan Cain (46:38): That doesn't mean that ... Listen, there's really good baseball playing all across Division 1 baseball. We got our teeth kicked in, in the super-regional in 2016 by Coastal Carolina who went on to win the national championship. There good programs are good places to play everywhere. And that is from NAIA, junior college, Division 3, Division 2, Division 1, Power 5, all these things, find the place that's the best fit for you and factor in everything and have a plan. Because you see a lot of guys making the big leagues that didn't play at every big school in the country.
Travis Chick (47:17): That's right.
Nolan Cain (47:19): And right now, it's very difficult for a lot of these 21s and 22s, the COVID 19 and the pandemic and man, with the roster push that we're all having, listen, if you have an opportunity to go play at a good junior college, go do it, man. Because that carrot will still be out there for you to come play at a school like LSU. And I'm answering emails every day from 21s and 22s that it's just like, "Hey man, listen, I just can't do anything." It's not your fault, and don't let that get you down mentally. Keep grinding, keep pushing through.
Nolan Cain (47:53): Go find a place to play, put up solid numbers, do good in the classroom, and then good things will happen when all this stuff when all this stuff kind of washes away in the next couple of years.
Travis Chick (48:02): That's great. Well, coach, thank you so much for having us. To those that are listening to this podcast, we're going to put show notes at the bottom to be able to link up to. If you have any questions, I'm sure coach Cain would love to answer some, if you have any specific for him. Obviously, if you have any on the financial side, we'd love to help you guys out as well. Thanks again for joining us on the MLB Draft Podcast. Look forward to see you next time.